Thanks for the good times!


What a small number.  Not even halfway from one percent to two.  In terms of raw damage, that’s a single volley from a HML Tengu on a tanked out Prophecy.  Just one…

But that’s the straw that broke the camel’s back.

No, this isn’t a “B2K are asses, so we’re leaving” post.  This, in the end, has nothing to do specifically with B2K, and everything to do with CCP’s screwed up factional warfare mechanics.  To quote from my On Militias and Awoxing article:

…there is a distinct inability to remove troublemakers from factional warfare.  Going back to the original Awox, one of extreme solutions in those scenarios was to kick the offending corporation.  With the corporation out of the alliance, the offending pilot(s) shows up differently in local.  No little alliance star, deep in 0.0, typically means you’re the prey instead of the hunter.  You can’t do that in the militia.  Corps come and go as they please, rather than the militia pleases.  They have all the access and convenience, with none of the accountability.  This is a problem.

Similarly, there is no way to enforce resetting a corporation with negative standings.  In a typical 0.0 alliance you follow the party line and reset the troublemakers “or else.”  Fail to do so, you might find yourself on the outside looking in.  Again, not possible in FW.  I can’t enforce BORG’s standings.  ATONEMENT can’t affect CSSYN’s.  Thus while some parts of the militia might have B2K (as an example) set to negative standings, not everyone will.  The State Protectorate as a whole cannot.  Thus they see “friends firing on friends” and don’t know how to react.

Militias are fundamentally broken from the ground up.  The focus on frigs and destroyers.  The near-AFK plexing of systems as a way to gain rank and LP.  The complete joke that is flipping systems (read: it’s pointless).  No way to remove troublemakers (individuals or corps) from the militia.  Too many easy ways for pilots who repeatedly engage in militia-on-militia combat to recoup standings.  The only feature that delivers as intended is a shared chat channel to aid in coordination between parties.

If any one or two of the above problems existed, we’d still be all-in.  But the amalgamation of all the issues?  Hell no.  They collectively breed a system that I want nothing to do with.  I hate that it has taken me 3+ months to come to this realization.  My only rationalization is that the issues crept up on me one at a time, and I was unable to see the entire mess they made.

This past week I took a couple days off due to my anniversary, brother graduating, etc… to properly evaluate things.  The conclusion I reached is simple:  I have much better things to do with my time.  Better PvP opportunities where the focus isn’t on nigh-useless ships.  Better money making opportunities.  Better ways overall to have fun.

So we’re off.  I had fun in FW, and then the fun evaporated.  Thanks for the targets, Gal Mil.  Chatgris, XG, and others…you were class acts and it was fun the few times we chatted.


Fly dangerous!


  1. I suppose this means the FW website project has been scrapped as well?

    • Negative. We don’t like to leave projects unfinished. It’ll still get launched, assuming we can find contributors.

      • above is sage advice in EVE trust no one. But hey that is what’s great about EVE the ferdeom to do what you want overall. The learning curve is very high in EVE though there are things being done to lower that but it’s still there. Probably the best thing a newbie can do is find a good corp that will accept them and teach them the ropes as there are plenty of vets that would help you get started. But in the end EVE isn’t for everyone it’s a game that requires a huge amount of patience and time. Me personally I still get a rush every time I see my enemies ship lighting on fire as I burn down the rest of their structure I just hope it isn’t mine that’s burning though that can be fun too :P

  2. Sorry to see you go. For all of FW’s flaws, it is still the best pvp out there IMHO. Good luck out there Geary!

    • Thanks Andre! :)

    • I agree, it is amazing pvp for small gangs and solo. if you are a smaller group in a back water little system it is in fact completely amazing, take loes for example. how ever for there to be any real ground breaking movement into the end game of FW they need to change SO MUCH. one of my personal biggest issues with the plexing systems is that you always come into a plex in the same place. ALWAYS. one of the biggest rules of war is that you never fight an enemy where they want you. you always have the dis-advantage. so to counter this we had to throw blob type numbers at the enemy which meant they ran. it seriously just got boring and not so fun towards the end.

  3. Dang. I had such high hopes for you guys. Oh well, the bright burning candle burns short. It’s a good place to be. Even the old hats keep coming back to it time and again. Have fun, and keep roaming the area!

    • Thanks Garr. We’ll be in the area as often as our connection permits. :)

  4. Got tired of trying to herd cats, heh?

  5. Out of curiosity, why do you consider the emphasis on frigate and destroyer combat a problem with FW? I agree that FW is a mess in many respects, but most of the militia pilots I talk to consider this a selling point.

    • Because those ship types are nigh useless everywhere outside of FW. You aren’t learning to be a better 0.0 PvPer. You aren’t learning how to control bigger/better ships, or to strategize in your engagements.

      I don’t want the pilots I’m training to think that is in any way representative of the “end-game” PvP in EVE. But, again, this is coming from a 0.0 FC and Alliance Exec.

      • Actually, assault frigates are pretty popular and useful everywhere small gang PvP occurs. “End-game” PvP, if such exists, is different for every player. For many, it is decidedly *not* huge armor fleets in null. In fact, a strong case could be made that FW *is* end-game PvP, in that it requires much more sophisticated tactical knowledge, much quicker reflexes, and a great deal more risk than larger-scale PvP with bigger/”better” ships.

        • Your opinion is noted, Mac (yes, same IP). I disagree with it, vehemently, and that’s fine. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions.

          • He does have a valid point here. Small ships are much less forgiving. They require much greater pilot skill than the larger ships. The BIG difference is that the larger fleets require a exponential increase in FC skill compared to the smaller ships.

            The problem with FW not having the more advanced fleets is not game mechanics, it’s the lack of qualified FCs. The isk, ships, SPs, and numbers are there (at least in gal mil). For some reason FCs keep leaving once they get really good. Gallente lost there last truly world class shiney/capital FCs with SOTF.

            There are up and coming ones that are getting close, but still not to the point where they can get 20 dread pilots to be willing to drop.

            If you get tired of WHs, come back to Gallente FW. We really need to figure out how to go head to head with Snuff, Shadow Cartel, etc. I’m afraid your opinion of FW is jaded because you picked the worst faction for pvp pilots. Don’t get me wrong, there are a few quality corps in Caldari, but overall the other three factions are worlds better.

          • I might take you up on that offer sometime in the future, Andre. My last major FCing prior to my break from EVE (before coming back and joining FW) was as the Capital Ship FC for one of the major alliances. Dread hotdrops, capital escalations, etc… were everyday occurrences. Very fun times. :)

  6. why is this so common in FW…

    null fcs come to fw thinking they are hot shit because they drop 20 dreads on 10 dreads and somehow win that engagement.

    then in fw they get wrecked every day in small gang pvp.

    then they go blah blah small ships are stupid blah who cares about frigates blah blah blah.

    the only nullers in fw who can back up their talk atm are b2k.

    • Amen.

    • Get wrecked? Wilgotna, I’ve got nothing but respect for you sir, but this is just overgeneralizing. I didn’t have a fleet get wrecked in small gang PvP in FW. Indeed, small gang warfare is something that me and mine are particularly fond of, what we did for 6 out of the 10 years we’ve played EVE. It’s only the other 4 that we were in nullsec, contributing to or leading alliances.

      Our perspective, what we didn’t care for in FW is simple: It’s pointless. Flipping a system is meaningless. There is no tangible benefit. Indeed, it is the only system in the game designed where holding the system means you make less ISK there than if the enemy holds it. Beyond that, the structured PvP around deadspace pockets is a terrible mechanic. You exclude the ships that are flown in almost every fleet in the game from almost every size plex. I’m not one that has the need to fly Battleships or Capitals all the time, despite those dominating nullsec doctrines. I’m a fan of the Strategic Cruisers, of Battlecruisers, Command Ships, and more. I don’t want to fly trash, shit ships.

      In the end, I think a few people are simply missing the point on why we left. It isn’t that the people in Cal Mil frustrated us, or that we pulled our hair out because we couldn’t “control people.” Neither of those were the case. We got along fine with B2K and other “troublemakers”, and had them at positive standings throughout the war. We stopped trying to herd the cats, both with the stick and the carrot, when we realized just how pointless the whole thing was. Who the hell cares if the other side takes a system? More money for us. Who the hell cares if we take another system? More money for the enemy.

      If CCP were to include upgrading the systems you have sov in with things like limited jump bridges or the like, great, that’s a reason to fight over the systems. That would add a strategic layer to an otherwise strictly tactical affair. If CCP were to provide fewer ways for dedicated awoxer’s to stay in the militia, or ways to collectively vote to boot them out, that would be awesome.

      Those are our gripes. Not “taking our ball and going home”, not frustration surrounding a lack of control, not anything else along those lines. You can ask Sub, Unreal, or any of the rest of CSSYN’s leadership. We left because we came to the conclusion that FW is pointless, that we want more than what it has to offer, and we could find more fun elsewhere. You don’t have to agree with our reasons. You might be the exact type of pilot CCP is catering to with the always-on, no consequences PvP. If so, great. More power to you. This is a game, you should do what you enjoy. That’s what we’re doing, seeking out and finding something we enjoy.

  7. It’s a shame to see you guys go, but it isn’t an uncommon sight and life within FW continues.

    While FW is certainly flawed, it isn’t without its charms. I wouldn’t necessarily call it end-game PvP, I see it more as a no-mans land between piracy, 0.0, and carebearing. It’s a great place to make contacts, learn the ropes of PvP, and offers a steady supply of interesting engagements. If you’re coming from a high-sec background it offers a great introduction to the logistical side of Eve if you’re based in low-sec. Or from null it provides a change of pace and scale when things get stale out there. Few people are here for the long run it seems.

    As for system control, you’re partially correct. The benefits of controlling systems really need looking into. Station control is where it counts, and why only a handful of systems really matter. Beyond that, maintaining enough systems to comfortably hold a decent tier is pretty much the extent of battlefield control, assuming people care enough to donate. Which they don’t. As with most mechanics in eve, the players make it what it is.