Cal Mil Civil War

Cal Mil Civil War

Factional Warfare is all about the ongoing, sustained wars between each independent faction and its nemesis.  Caldari vs. Gallente.  Amarr vs. Minmatar.  Pilots don’t have to pay for these wars.  You can join your very first day in the game and have as many war targets as you can handle until the day CCP turns off the feature, shuts down the servers, or you stop playing.  It’s a great outlet for pent up aggression.

But what happens when your own militia becomes the enemy?  When disagreements flare into in-space combat?  That is what is currently taking place in Cal Mil – civil war.  Something that doesn’t happen often, if at all.  Said Andre Vauban of QCATS, “A Caldari civil war? This is something new that I’ve never seen before in my 5 years of being in FW.”  On one side you have BORG, ATONEMENT, and Templis alliances…along with a few independent corps like CSSYN.  On the other side you have Born-2-Kill.  As the hostilities broke wide open while I was on the road, I sat down to chat with each of the leaders to try and piece together what exactly brought us to where we are today.  Khan Farshatok, Vicktor Hark, Scylus Black, and Subsparx were interviewed from the anti-B2K forces.  Crimsons Storm represented B2K.  Little-to-no editing has been applied to their statements.  The only changes that have been made have been to capitalization or punctuation as necessary (and even then only to make the statements legible).

 BORG, ATONEMENT, Templis, CSSYN:

Take us back to the beginning of the conflict with B2K.  How did this whole thing get started?

Khan
I’ll answer this in my statement to the militia.

Vick
Well for me it all started on a fleet Op with Khan one night, up until that point I’d had very little interaction with B2K members other than MandBehindTheMadness.  On the night in question we were doing a little Tristan fleet roam killing some Galmil when on our way back our scouts saw a pirate gatecamp in nenna. It seemed a few B2K guys (At the time friendly militia) were engaging it so we warped in and set about shooting up some PIE’s. Khan went down and quickly reshipped into a nado on his return he was firing at the PIE’s when B2K opened up on him blowing up his ship. This caused an uproar with the fleet, Khan logged after KOS’ing the B2K and I shipped up a fair number of people to BC’s heading stright back into Nenna. I took myself to the small and waited, sure enough Leathal and 2 other B2K members warped on top of my Prophecy after a few choice words on both sides in local they attacked me, so I called the fleet in and chased them off be.

Scylus
I first became aware of B2K and the CAAN0N character when they started awoxing. There was some drama with CAAN0N and a couple CalMil corporations about him being an awoxer. To the point where it became public discussion in Militia Chat. Prior to the war when one of them (can’t remember his name) joined a Templis Dragonaors Public Fleet I had a conversation with him about expectations. Looking to be pro-active after the drama with his colleague. We later joined Khan on a fleet. This guy yellow boxed Khan. At which point I told him to cease and desist or lose his ship. He did and apologized. I saw first hand how they were playing games and leading a double life. Removed him from the fleet. Long and short this group became known as undesirables. They war decced BORG and Atonement a couple days later. Templis Dragonaors immediately allied with them.

Subsparx
CAAN0N started things by AWOXing members of my corporation. He had no remorse about it, his reasoning was “they were flashy, so I shot them.” He said he doesn’t think before he fires. Interesting guy. Not necessarily a bad dude, just a trigger happy one, as evidenced by his ability to wardec my corporation with his alt alliance within 15 seconds of being denied in our fleet.

What do you think B2K’s motivation was in declaring war?

Khan
I have done some tinfoil hat digging. It seems that b2k have been doing this “screw with the militia’s” thing for a while. I found two of their spies in my corp and their histories show them being in all the major alliances within cal mil dating years back.

Vick
Well I’ve been told with was because I commanded a fleet that killed 2 of their Proties, but thas was their own fault. They saw me on a gatecamp in Aki and decided to aggress me on the gate (guns on their killmail prove they went suspect and Battle Logs showed they fired first). We killed them both and their Augoror support ship with no losses, soon after they WarDec BORG and A T O N M E N T.

Scylus
I think they backed themselves into a corner. They had no other option. The formal corporations with stable alliances no longer trusted them. Those with no knowledge of their history aligned with them until they exposed themselves for who they were. They had three options. Make amends, Leave CalMil, or Fight Us. Since the first two would demand common sense and integrity from their leadership team the later was the only option. At this point it will be about ISK. B2K is playing it safe in Hi-Sec and camping a Hub for us. Only becomes an issue with us if we use that Hub. Since we reside in Low-Sec and rarely ever go to Hi-Sec its not. They can spin in their ships up in Ichoriya and pay the bill to keep the war going. Sounds like an exciting great ISK investment from their leadership team…

Subsparx
B2K’s motivation is likely simple. They want to shoot things, they don’t like Khan, by wardeccing, they get to shoot him and his alliance whenever they want. They never wardecced us, we simply joined afterwards. I think they just find Khan to be a bit boisterous and don’t get along with him well.

Why do you think BORG and ATONEMENT were singled out in the war?

Khan
Because we saw through their total bullshit and weren’t going to stand for it. They knew if they kept it up eventually b2k would be ejected due to standings and that they wouldn’t be able to continue their trolling.

Vick
I think that is mainly because we are two of the most active alliances in Calmil and have the most active widely known (and most vocal :D ) FC’s at the moment. We were also the ones to most vocally object to B2K’s continued killing of fellow Calmil pilots.

Scylus
They are well known in Militia and had more interaction with them. When I think about the top Alliances in CalMil. Only three come to mind. Those and Templis Dragonaors (TD). We may have others and I mean no disrespect for having not mentioned them. It’s just these three do a lot with CalMil. More so BORG and ATONEMENT. So it was only natural for B2K to target them first. Plus TD does their best to avoid controversy and drama. We want to focus on the war. What they did not expect was Templis becoming an immediate ally to support BORG and ATONEMENT. I mean lets be frank, I find it disgusting that a CalMil corporation would ever war decc another. We have a war with the Gallente. Not each other. We can have our differences, agree to disagree, and it should not stop us from doing business. It took no time on my part to get TD involved. It was the right thing to do to have a united front and shut these traitors down.

Subsparx
BORG was singled out because Khan creates the KOS list and B2K and BORG have been going back and forth for a while since he first added them for AWOXing my corp. ATONEMENT was singled out because Vick runs fleets with BORG all the time and honestly I just think B2K wanted more targets.

What’s your game plan for the near future?  Do you see the war stretching for more than the initial week?

Khan
I do see the war extending. In fact they have had 2 other groups join in as well.

Vick
No changes at the moment.  Maybe a few days off after the loss of one skill dude to a pod kill by B2K but otherwise much the same I do most days. As for the war lasting very long….no I don’t see it stretching for very long. B2K have brought more and more Corps and Alliances down on their heads, and while I respect and still talk to a few B2K guys the rest seem to be rude, smacktalking nobodys who have been unchallenged for so long in the wrong they are doing that it’s hit them as a shock that so many are turning on them.

Scylus
I think the war will last a couple weeks. I think B2K will try to make a point (not sure what it is). Maybe when they have spent 1 Billion ISK will they think its time to move on. Who knows. One thing for sure. This entire corporation has not only screwed themselves but their pilots. You are known by the company you keep. No one will want to take any of them in their ranks. I know we won’t. B2K has essentially blacklisted every pilot on there team. Best thing they can do is move on.

Subsparx
We moved all of our ships to low-sec and are no longer staging in Onnamon or Ichoriya. I see the war stretching out for a while, depends how long B2K wants to pay for it, as I don’t see it being declared mutual out of spite.

How does this affect your group’s ability to take the fight to the Gallente?  Which is the priority right now, Gal Mil or B2K?

Khan
It has no effect on it at all. The major thing that b2k have is that they have all their ships in the Icho station and can just reship. I have ordered my Alliance to forget that station even exists.

Vick
Both are as much a priority as the other at the moment. I have still been FC’ing fleets on Galmil fights/Roams while also trying to engage B2K (Which is a little hard when they just play station games in high sec). Having said that, if B2K would just apologize and stop killing friendly Militia then I would be more than happy to have them in fleets killing Galmil with us, rather than them feeling the need to kill everyone going.

Scylus
We had to change how we manage our focus on the war effort. Other than that its been a non-issue. The B2K War is a priority. When a fleet specific to attacking B2K is operational we have a standing order in the Alliance to join that. When a fleet is not operational we focus on our war effort. We’re in it for the long haul.

Subsparx
This doesn’t affect our ability much to my knowledge. It’s given us more targets to shoot at, and honestly I’m here for the good fights and it’s all in good fun. I harbor no particular resentment towards CAAN0N as we figured out our issues, and the rest of B2K has not been aggressing us and has been focusing on BORG and ATONEMENT. The priority is still Gallente, and I hope that B2K will respect that as well.


I asked mostly the same questions of Crimsons Storm, the B2K representative who agreed to be interviewed.  There are a few variations here and there, mostly to aim them at the anti-B2K side of the conflict.  As with the above, minimal/no editing has been applied.

Born-2-Kill:

Take us back to the beginning of the conflict with the other Cal Mil forces.  How did this whole thing get started?

Crimsons
The conflict from our point of view stems from an incident where one of our members (caanon) engaged a flagged suspect pilot at which point he was placed on a “KOS” list. Without being over verbose, this incident served as the seed from which the current situation has grown from, its rapid growth fuelled by a certain someone’s ego and general condescension towards our corp. That said I’m not going to sit here and say we are entirely innocent, but had things been handled with a little more respect things may have worked out differently.

In addition, Khan tried to kill caanon a couple times and failed.  They also banned b2k from intel/leadership fleets ect not listening to khan and kicking cannon out of corp.

Why war?  From what I’m given to understand, you guys declared war on BORG and ATONEMENT.  What are you hoping to accomplish?

Crimsons
War was the logical choice for us, it increased the battlefield exponentially (to high sec).  Not to give away too much, but this allows us to take the fight beyond the ships lost in space.  As for the motives behind the war declaration, the KOS list mainly, we had no way of knowing who was going to engage us as a result of being on it, so the war declaration makes things clear for both sides.

Seshzan
A day before our CEO received an ingame mail from someone in atonement who said stuff and then just threatened us with the wraith of their alliance if we didn’t stop killing khan. Saying they would wardec if we didn’t play nice.

This seemed like a good idea as it saved sec hits / standing hits. So Wardec’s on those 2 alliances followed shortly.

Did you expect Templis, CSSYN, and others to jump in to assist BORG and ATONEMENT?

Crimsons
Honestly, we expected some “sheep like” behaviour (as in those close to borg and atonement), this supposition was further supported when we started to receive mail from other corps in the militia saying they are going to “bring the whole wrath of the militia” down upon us. These threats have seen a more “aggressive” approach being taken towards other corps of the militia as we have no way of determining who is doing what, so its better to engage first and worry about the diplomacy later.

All this aside, we have set one militia corp blue as they wish to have not part in the whole ordeal and have given assurances that they will not engage B2K (they are still free to fly in BORG and ATTONEMENT fleets and will not be engaged should B2K engage said fleets as long as we don’t find them on any of our death mails).

We thrive when we are outnumbered and all this “band wagoning” has ensured is that we have more fights.

Are more reinforcements on the way to aid your side in the conflict?

Crimsons
No, at this stage we have no plans for permanent reinforcements, not to sound arrogant but we work better as a smaller group and as you can see on the in game the war reports, we have no real need for reinforcements (yet ???).

On occasions we may call for assistance in low sec to defend towers, but for general operations and the scope of the war declarations, we have no desire to call in reinforcements.

What’s your game plan for the near future?  Do you see the war stretching for more than the initial week?

Crimsons
I certainly can see this war stretching further than the first week, as for any specific plans, nothing set in stone at this stage besides logging in and kicking off (fights).  It might not go too much longer if they don’t make it mutual, though.

How does this affect your group’s ability to take the fight to the Gallente?  Which is the priority right now, Gal Mil or the anti-B2K groups?

Crimsons
Because most of us are relatively old players (05 and forward), most of us are used to operating within the theatre of war and as we mostly employ guerrilla fighting tactics, many of us are proficient at moving around the fights we can’t fight in order to get to the ones we can fight.

For the most part, the only effect the war declaration has had is created more opportunities for fights.

As for priority, we don’t really have one…..a kill is a kill.


Thank you Khan, Vick, Scylus, Subsparx, and Crimsons Storm for taking the time to answer the above.  I hope the answers provide the rest of Cal Mil (and the Gallente) a better perspective on what is actually going on, and how we got to this position in the first place.

 

Fly dangerous.

19 Comments

  1. “Said Andre Vauban of QCATS, “A Caldari civil war? This is something new that I’ve never seen before in my 5 years of being in FW.”” I was being sarcastic when I said this by the way.

    Caldari Militia has at least 1-2 “civil wars” per year for as long as I can remember. Caldari standard operating procedure is that whenever Caldari militia starts to get their act together, somebody inevitability tries to “control the militia” which results in hurt feeling and civil war.

    Caldari seem to be the only militia to keep having these large scale internal conflicts. The other militias get war decs, but they seem to stay isolated without all of militia taking one side or the other. My guess is that it must have something to do with Caldari being the defacto choice for established ex-nullsec groups. I’m not sure if the conflict is caused by the nullsec attitudes or just sticking several established groups with different agendas and no history together on the same side.

    Anyway, I’m enjoying my popcorn.

    • as this may be true to the fact that someoen does try to take over. this is actually not the case here. as those that follow me in fleets and join in on the discussions for up coming campaigns can vouche for, i just try to lead fleets and get shit done. i have no interest in being the leader of the militia.

      • Khan, I’m going to be blunt with you, and I’m going to try to be nice about it.

        From what people have seen, with all that crap about the “Inner circle” and that whole “Address to the State” shit, a lot of people think you’re trying to be “The Mittani of CalMil”. You operate the KOS list, you have your own “inner Circle”, hell I’ve seen you boss around people you had no business ordering around, and heard some outrageous things about it too. it seriously looks like you’re trying to take control of CalMil to a lot of people, mate, I’m not gunna try and dance around it.

        Now, please be civil to me as I have done unto you. Thank you.

        • As CEO of a 33 man corp, and one of the leaders of his alliance as a whole, Khan very much has a duty to boss those people around. If other people like what he is doing, and are glad someone is bringing a team ethos to what is otherwise a ‘militia of individuals and egos’ then I don’t see the problem. I had an ‘Inner Cirle’ when I was CEO of a 20 man corporation, and I really don’t see an issue with having some operational security… unless you’re upset because you’re not invited?
          If you don’t like him getting stuff done, don’t join his fleets. But that doesn’t mean you have to denigrate his name or slander him for doing something you don’t agree with.
          Perhaps if you don’t like it, you could form your own fleets, and go take your own iHubs, and fight your own war against the reds, as I see you doing in Amarr space now. Just agree to disagree.

  2. I think the difference here is that in Cal mil you guys have one guy from time to time that steps up and tries to run the show for the whole militia. Some of you guys dig it, others start getting offended, and then these big wars happen inside the militia. This seems to be a strictly Caldari phenomenon with the supreme commander thing, I don’t see it happen in any other militia.

    My only theory is that Caldari as a faction must appeal to people like this for whatever reason, and as mentioned by others, they seem to attract a lot of hardcore ex null types.

    Gal mil by comparison also has a “central” group, but it’s a leadership by consensus, there is no one person who calls the shots. Suggestions are made and either agreed with, disagreed with, or alternatives are presented until a consensus is made. Think like a senate where the involved alliances and corps all have representatives.

    There is no one person who would ever declare someone as arbitrarily KOS. Maybe for their own alliance, but never speaking for the militia. Instead, it would be passed around what happened, and people would make their own calls. Only once have a seen someone manage to much up relations so bad that the whole militia turned on them, and it was some new nobody corp that shot some gal mil pies in a militia fleet and was so smug and unrepentant afterward that there were 6 or 7 wardecs that followed in the next 2 hours. There was no civil war though, those guys got the hint real fast and were out of the warzone within a day.

    Other militias have wardecs of course. My own alliance has been involved in 2 within the last couple months, but these are isolated incidents, and generally stay between the 2 offended parties and do not spill over. You guys are pretty unique in these big civil wars.

    • thats basically how it goes here now. i throw out idea’s to the other’s in leadership and we go from there. the KOS list you speak of is a list i started up because no one else had done it. no one had any idea who was a spy or who was an awoxer so a list needed to be made so that people have the intelligence they need. it has been quite successful and every person on the list has a file on my computer with the proof of their wrong doings that anyone can ask any time to see.

  3. If you don’t wanna get shot, don’t go flashy unless you’re a blue. Going criminal and then whining when people shoot you… these pompous miltards are getting that they have coming to them. The militia is no longer an exclusive little club. Adapt or die.

  4. Honestly, from what I’ve seen, it’s not “BORG & Co. taking the war well and not being effected that much” as it’s being presented in the article. I’ve seen the kills, and just BORG alone is getting their skulls kicked in. I’m reading at about nearly 1.6 bil isk of BORG ships and pods dead (54), while BORG is sitting at 341 mil isk of B2K ships killed (8). They are NOT doing well AT ALL.

    • As with any wardec though I would argue that the majority of those kills/deaths are from people not following rules laid out and being killed on Ichoriya station-which is pretty much the only place I ever see B2K at the moment.

      • Indeed. Personally I (and more players) ignore born2dock bcause they are only playing station games 24/7. You cant even speak of a war’ lol.

  5. Khan
    Do you have any proof what so ever that B2K has been involved with these so called “screw with the militia” endeavours?

    You keep going on about hard evidence of this and files on that yet not one solid piece of evidence has come to light.

    WE on the other hand have SOLID proof of you posting fake loss mails on battle clinic, so we know that doctoring up false information is not outside the realm of your doing.

    The honest truth is B2K has NEVER been involved in factional warfare before we joined the caldari militia. Now as for some of our members being involved in factional warfare, that’s a different story, and to be honest not my story to tell as I can honestly say I have no idea who had done it before we joined as a corp.

    • I think declaring war on 2 of the CalMil alliances is proof that you’re screwing with militia-even if you claim innocence before, you certainly aren’t now.
      If you have someone in your corp who is repeatedly a dick, and you refuse to do anything about it, people will get pissed. If you have people in your corp who repeatedly fire on purples “because my overview hasn’t been sorted out” without educating them in overview mechanics and again, sorting them out, then that is down to the negligence of the CEO and directors, and again will make people pissed. Enough people get pissed, and you will end up on a KoS list regardless of how innocent you claim to be.
      Evidence be damned-we can all see the ‘purple on purple’ action on your killboard, occuring on a daily basis even before you decided that war was the only way you could find ‘justice’.

      • C3ph45

        I never claimed Innocence, the only claim I’m disputing is the claim they we have been doing this “FW” thing for years now, when the truth is many people are drawing an unfounded conclusion based on the actions of people carried out LONG before they joined B2K.

        The purple on purple action you see is ex post facto the event(s) that served as the catalyst for the current dispute.

        And now because we didn’t kick caanon, we were booted from several Intel channels and as a crop, flagged as kos, so if this militia and its sheepish members want a fight…..we will give you a fight…..and trust me son…..this war is not ending anytime soon.

        • Yanno, if CalMil has well and truly pissed you off, GalMil can always use a few good pilots…

          • I hear they’re really good at guarding stations.

  6. Is this stuff actually news worthy anymore? I’ve flown in CalMil, GalMil, and Null….it’s always the same…some egotistical idiot, who thinks he’s awesome thinks everyone should do as he say’s…and those that have equally big ego’s get upset that people aren’t doing what they say, and so a little squabble ensues. If CalMil spent as much time, and resources fighting the Gallente Militia as they do arguing and throwing their handbags at one another, the war would be over, and CCP would give me my shiny medal…instead, I retired, frustrated and despondent at Cal Mil’s insistence on mimicking the byzantine and intercine conflicts between the NPC corps….well done boys, Tibus Heth would be proud!

    • I would see it a different way.
      Someone comes in and wants to get things done, finds willing and able pilots who also want to get things done. Fleets form up, things get done.
      Bitterets and rageaholics see things getting done, go out of their way to demean them and dismiss them. Refuse to actually join such a movement and lend their (likely) considerable assets and experience to such a fight, shouting from the rooftops that all attempts at victory will fail.
      I agree, if everyone pulled together, the war would be won. Regardless of who puts up the fleets, there will always be people willing to ride out and fight-it just so happens that Khan is one of those people, and because he has some charisma, experience and success, he finds pilots more easily. He isn’t going around telling people what to do (other than when he is FC)-people willingly do as he says because most of what he says makes sense. Why is that so bad? Why would that make you retire?

      • No one is disputing khan likes to get things done, in my book he gets 10 out of 10 for effort.

        BUT his execution however, leaves a lot to be desired.

        This and his lack of respect has landed him where he is now.

  7. small organized group of good players vs alliances of casuals

    i wonder whats gonna happen